Practically 60 years in the past, now-retired Colonel Paris Davis did one thing outstanding. He was a Inexperienced Beret, one of many first Black officers to hitch the elite Special Forces. And on June 18, 1965 as daybreak was breaking over the rice paddies of Binh Dinh province Vietnam, Davis, his Special Forces group, and an inexperienced firm of South Vietnamese troopers began taking heavy machine-gun fireplace from Viet Cong fighters — tons of of fighters.
Throughout a 19-hour battle, Davis saved three Individuals beneath his command, disobeying two direct orders from a superior officer to take action, crawling by way of mud and human waste to rescue them. He killed greater than a dozen enemies utilizing all method of weapons, together with participating in hand-to-hand fight. He was wounded not less than eight occasions within the course of, and was the final American to step off the battlefield that day.
How might a soldier like Davis who exhibited that kind of heroism endure the destiny of getting the paperwork for the nation’s highest navy honor misplaced — and never simply as soon as, however twice?
The reply, in response to historians, his household and buddies is obvious — racism. Davis, a Black officer main an elite pressure who had disobeyed a superior through the peak of the Civil Rights motion might effectively have been an emblem for these striving for equality in that period.
Army officers had been hesitant accountable discrimination, however acknowledged Davis had waited far too lengthy, declaring their admiration for the acts of braveness he had carried out in 1965.
Be part of host Drew F. Lawrence as he explores Davis’ legacy by way of the eyes of his buddies, household and naturally, the retired Inexperienced Beret himself.
Primary Matters
- Drew F. Lawrence interviews Col. (ret.) Paris D. Davis, Medal of Honor Recipient — his household, buddies, and Army officers.
- Drew F. Lawrence discusses Col. (ret.) Davis’ story with navy historian Neil Thorne. Thorne reproduced Davis’ Medal of Honor paperwork, serving to push for the retired Inexperienced Beret’s honor on the White Home final week.
- Co-host Rebecca Kheel and Navy.com’s Army reporter Steve Beynon talk about the Army’s new model: Be All You Can Be
Extra Assets
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Transcript:
SPEAKERS
President Joe Biden, Ron Deis, Neil Thorne, Steve Beynon, Command Sgt. Maj. Michael Weimer, Drew Lawrence, Regan Hopper, Phil Donahue, Maj. Gen. Patrick Roberson, Col. Paris Davis, Rebecca Kheel
Drew Lawrence
Realizing what you understand right this moment, what would you return and inform then-Captain Paris Davis on June 18 1965.
Col. Paris Davis
Be sure to are sporting your boots and you’ve got some meals. And also you and also you do what you probably did. Paris Davis.
Drew Lawrence
Practically 60 years in the past, now-retired Colonel Paris Davis did one thing outstanding. He was a Inexperienced Beret, one of many first Black officers to hitch the elite Special Forces. And on June 18, 1965 as daybreak was breaking over the rice paddies of Binh Dinh province Vietnam, Davis, his Special Forces group, and an inexperienced firm of South Vietnamese troopers began taking heavy machine gun fireplace from Viet Cong fighters — tons of of fighters. Throughout a 19-hour battle, Davis saved three Individuals beneath his command, disobeying two direct orders from a superior officer to take action, crawling by way of mud and human waste to rescue them. He killed greater than a dozen enemies utilizing all method of weapons, together with participating in hand-to-hand fight. He was wounded not less than eight occasions within the course of, and was the final American to step off the battlefield that day.
Phil Donahue
What did you say when the Air Drive colonel from the airplane ordered you out of the world?
Col. Paris Davis
Effectively, I instructed him, ‘Sir, I am simply not going to depart. I nonetheless have an American on the market.’
Phil Donahue
And what did he say?
Col. Paris Davis
He instructed me to maneuver out. And I simply disobeyed the order.
Drew Lawrence
That was Davis on the Phil Donahue Present in 1969, explaining the assault — and the disobeyed order — that might ultimately lead him to earn the Medal of Honor final week. He would solely earn that honor after a decades-long push from supporters and fellow service members who questioned how the Army misplaced Davis’ Medal of Honor paperwork. How might a soldier like Davis who exhibited that kind of heroism endure the destiny of getting the paperwork for the nation’s highest navy honor misplaced — and never simply as soon as, however twice? The reply, in response to historians, his household and buddies is obvious — racism. Davis, a Black officer main an elite pressure who had disobeyed a superior through the peak of the Civil Rights motion might effectively have been an emblem for these striving for equality in that period. Army officers had been hesitant accountable discrimination, however acknowledged Davis had waited far too lengthy, declaring their admiration for the acts of braveness he had carried out in 1965. Final week, on the eve of his Medal of Honor ceremony, I interviewed these supporters, Army officers, and Davis himself about his actions and the lengthy push for the 84 year-old to lastly get his dues.
For Navy.com, my identify is Drew Lawrence — it’s March tenth, that is Fireplace Watch and be part of me as we discover the combat and the legacy of Colonel Paris Davis.
Final Thursday, the day earlier than President Joe Biden draped the Medal of Honor round retired Colonel Paris Davis’ neck in a White Home ceremony the Army placed on a media day in a bustling lodge close to the Pentagon.
Army officers, teammates Davis served with, members of his household, and naturally, Davis himself had been there. There was a collective exhale among the many attendees — Davis was lastly getting this honor after 57 years of supporters preventing to take action. Davis and people supporters numbered within the dozens. Regan Hopper, his daughter calls them the group and all of them recounted the perils the younger Captain confronted in 1965. Davis bumped into peppering gunfire and mortar assaults to save lots of Grasp Sgt. Billy Waugh, Employees Sgt. David Morgan, and Spc. Robert Brown, who — unbeknownst to Davis on the time — was mendacity face up in a rice paddy with a head harm alive. Regan Hopper mentioned he did not talk about that day within the family whereas she was rising up, solely opening up about it because the push to get him the honour reached a fever pitch.
Regan Hopper
After we speak about it, he does not actually prefer to be known as a hero. He desires to be known as a soldier. Once I heard him speak about it extra just lately, he type of will get a bit of bit distant as a result of he is remembering that he could not deliver everybody house, he misplaced half his group that day…he was giving us these simply graphic particulars of how he needed to, you understand, get his arms beneath and the blood, simply pouring and making the physique slippery. And in simply having to re- you understand, reinforce his grip with bullets flying…is coronary heart wrenching for me. I did not even actually wish to know that sight of pop. To essentially perceive what your father’s eyes have seen is horrifying and terrifying.
Drew Lawrence
Beneath the reverence and in the end the aid, was a solemn recognition of the wrestle that it had taken for Davis to get there — beginning with the refused order which was given by a superior officer flying in a helicopter excessive above the battlefield.
Ron Deis
Effectively you understand, I used to be the junior member on the particular forces group. I used to be 22 years previous. That was my first deployment. So I in all probability did respect the gravity of getting him do one thing like that as a lot as among the different profession troopers…
Drew Lawrence
That is Ron Deis, the youngest surviving member of Davis’ Special Forces Staff explaining an encounter he had with one of many three males Davis saved on that June 1965 day.
Ron Deis
However what I used to be extra engaged with that night is among the members on the group that was on the bottom with Captain Davis was a gentleman named David Morgan, David Morgan. That night, when he received again in camp, he had leeches throughout his physique from being pinned down within the rice paddy. And, and the way we took leeches off again then we might mild a cigarette after which we might burn the top of the leech after which he would let go once I took…I feel I took 17 leeches off of Sergeant Morgan’s again that night time. However Sergeant Morgan mentioned to me, when he was telling me about what went on that time out within the discipline. He mentioned, I feel Captain Davis deserves a medal of honor for what he did right this moment. And that basically resonated with me, I by no means forgot it in all these years.
Drew Lawrence
It sounds such as you sort of believed it, then proper that he deserved the Medal of Honor.
Ron Deis
I did.
Drew Lawrence
Why, in your thoughts, did it take so lengthy for this present day to occur?
Ron Deis
I simply imagined what would occur. If paperwork for the Medal of Honor ended up on my desk. It might be nearly an honor to course of that and the one conclusion that I can come to — and that he was nominated twice — the one conclusion I can come to is that he was Black.
Drew Lawrence
That was the reply that members of Davis’ group gave me that day. Regan Hopper, not sure of whether or not to level the blame on the Army general — a corporation that she and her father love.
Regan Hopper
I do not suppose the collective physique would have ever stood for this. I feel it was just a few cowards that did this horrible, merciless deed that saved the world from figuring out who my dad is, the American hero that he’s, within the truest sense of the phrase. And we might have used one other hero, the African American group might have used one other hero to look as much as to assist encourage us to search for these alternatives, and to search for that function. And we missed out.
Drew Lawrence
I requested the person himself about this. The refusal of the order and what that meant through the civil rights motion. And I went again to his 1969 interview with Phil Donahue to take action. I wish to discuss a bit of bit concerning the Phil Donahue interview once more, as a result of in 1969, he requested you, you are a black man who was in command place of an all white outfit.
Phil Donahue
And also you risked your life and your profession while you refused to depart your males behind. That would have been the ballgame could not. Do you perceive why I’d increase that time? Do you thoughts that I raised the purpose.
Col. Paris Davis
Effectively, probably not, as a result of it is, it is one thing that you just’re, you are conscious of on a regular basis, you understand, black, white, the race drawback, home points. However I feel one of many good issues a few warfare or any kind of disaster, like Vietnam is the truth that folks which can be dedicated to it, jail, they arrive collectively, there is no race their hell at midnight. Brown is simply as Black or White is anybody else so their- our bodies are human beings that had been a kin. Not ethically, however by advantage of being Americans, being Individuals.
Drew Lawrence
So I wish to ask you that very same query. Now, over 50 years later. And I am going to add, if that might have been the ballgame. Why did you do it? And would you have got accomplished something otherwise?
Col. Paris Davis
Two issues actually stand out. Primary, the response to the questions or the statements that had been being made to me, is what I name stacked helicopters. Primary, the one who was telling me, giving me all these orders was up right here, and I am down over right here. And so he had the prerogative to inform me to depart the person proper there — in a helicopter — to select him up. I mentioned that is not going to work. And once I insisted that I wasn’t going to depart, you understand, I can bear in mind him saying, very succinctly, ‘I want I used to be down there.’ And I can bear in mind saying to myself, there’s numerous room down right here. He by no means got here down. And though I used to be reprimanded, it might have saved me from the overall officer checklist. However that is it. And so I simply let it go. And you may’t maintain on to stuff like that. In case you do not let it go it’s going to simply tie you in knots.
Drew Lawrence
Would you have got accomplished something otherwise?
Col. Paris Davis
Kicked his ass if he got here down there…
Drew Lawrence
After the humorous quip, although Davis received critical after I requested him what took so lengthy.
Col. Paris Davis
Yesterday and I received a name from a normal — did not give his identify…And he has the identical query…he mentioned it was simply racism. It is a normal speaking. Did not get his identify. He mentioned he simply needed to name as a result of he had heard a lot about that. And he says, ‘God dammit, if one thing lasts that lengthy, and nobody takes a liking to giving a solution or cause — and also you’re black — I feel racism.’ Did not give me his identify, he simply hung up. He simply and that is in all probability my reply too. As I mentioned earlier than, one of many nice issues about being Paris Davis, there are different occasions when different folks communicate for you, identical to that normal did yesterday.
Drew Lawrence
Developing, I communicate with Neil Thorne, an Army veteran and volunteer navy historian who painstakingly recreated Colonel Davis’ Medal of Honor paperwork — an act that lastly helped push the Pentagon and the White Home to acknowledge the retired Inexperienced Beret and his heroism final week. He’ll put Davis’ story within the context of the occasions, plus we’ll right here from present Army officers about his story too. Take a hear. All proper, Neil, thanks for becoming a member of us right here on Fireplace Watch. I needed to only begin with how lengthy you have been doing this: serving to veterans get the awards that they deserve. And also you talked about groups, how many individuals assist you to work on these awards.
Neil Thorne
Actually, each is award-specific. However relating to a group, it is an unbiased, it is every particular person award, and what that award wants. So for instance, all of the eyewitnesses, I’d name group members, as a result of they’re concerned. They usually’re required a part of the packet. So that they’re concerned in creating an eyewitness statements and getting them notarized, which is a key requirement. The commander’s those who nonetheless exist, they are a key element of the group. As a result of they need to signal on the DA Kind 638, which is a nomination for award for the packet. After which within the case of a few of these more moderen ones to the place we wanted to deliver out not simply we wanted to create the packet plus deliver out normal public consciousness on it. So we have introduced on PR folks, attorneys, Jim Moriarty, wonderful lawyer, plus, he comes with a complete group of graphics people, database people, all those who that fill in all these wants for a significant effort like this.
Drew Lawrence
Clearly, this can be a lot of labor, proper? It is numerous work, you set in numerous work this group places in, why do it? Why is it vital?
Neil Thorne
It is every every one among these medals and awards. Each single one which all the way down to an article is capturing a bit of US historical past. And it is locking that piece of historical past and thru its narratives and citations into one thing that’s everlasting. It is taken the popularity of valor that in any other case wouldn’t be acknowledged and by no means remembered, and preserving it into perpetuity.
Drew Lawrence
And what was it about Colonel Paris Davis’ case that made you are taking it up, or made it leap out to you, as you had been going by way of all these awards.
Neil Thorne
The very first thing once they when the oldsters that had been engaged on it, earlier than me, they contacted me as a result of they’d heard among the work I used to be doing. And at first I used to be agreed to have a look and advise on it. And one of many first belongings you do with any medal or award effort, is you pull the entire related paperwork. So that you get the veteran to tug all of their navy service information. Plus, within the case of a Medal of Honor DSC, the place the Nationwide Archives might have these information of their information earlier than that. And what actually set off alarms and whistles to me that one thing wasn’t proper, was once I pulled Colonel Davis’ Medal of Honor packet from the Nationwide Archives and it was not a Medal of Honor packet in any respect. What it was and what they name, his Medal of Honor packet was a 1969 listening to into his medals and awards. And in that listening to, it contained official testimony from his commander, Billy Cole, on the time again in ’65 stating that he had ready a Medal of Honor packet for Colonel Davis. And from there, that might go in copies going out it might have gone to Saigon…went to the Pentagon and it might simply unfold out and the variety of copies at that time. There was nothing. There was nothing apart from that listening to. We had Nationwide Archives trying to find it. We had the Army trying to find it. I used to be trying to find it. Jim Moriarty was searching for it. It did not exist, which effectively, so that is that is his recreated Medal of Honor packet — it is enormous — and the unique one had been roughly the identical measurement. It isn’t one thing that simply will get misplaced. And that 1969 listening to concluded with a press release that the unique 65 had been misplaced or destroyed. A brand new substantive packet may be created. That was by no means accomplished. It was both by no means accomplished or tried and draft once more.
Drew Lawrence
That listening to in 1969, that was a results of an investigation from the primary packet that was misplaced in 1965. Proper?
Neil Thorne
Appropriate.
Drew Lawrence
And so it was then submitted once more in 1969.
Neil Thorne
And it was ordered to be created and submitted. Now, whether or not these orders had been carried out, we discovered no proof of it both being carried out, as a result of there was nothing after that apart from the order to redo it.
Drew Lawrence
So it was, quote, unquote, misplaced twice. How probably is that to occur with Medal of Honor paperwork?
Neil Thorne
Unlikely, as a result of it is a massive deal. When it hits that clerk’s desk. It is a massive deal, and it is a massive packet, in order that it might be misplaced is very unlikely. Extra probably, it was trashed.
Drew Lawrence
Davis and his supporters imagine that the paperwork was misplaced because of discrimination at various scales between every of them. The week earlier than I spoke to Thorne, I requested Army leaders — Main Normal Patrick Roberson, and Command Sergeant Main Michael Weimer — whether or not discrimination performed a task in Davis not getting the Medal of Honor sooner.
Command Sgt. Maj. Michael Weimer
You simply need to acknowledge our historical past. I imply, it was an actual factor is there, which is why I feel his story is a lot extra distinctive.
Drew Lawrence
That is Command Sgt. Main Weimer, he is the senior enlisted chief for the U.S. Army Particular Operations Command and the incoming Sergeant Main of the Army. After he speaks, you may hear Maj. Gen. Roberson, the deputy commanding normal of Army SOCOM. Like Davis, each are Inexperienced Berets.
Command Sgt. Maj. Michael Weimer
…Historical past over time, and you may actually stroll the redemptive timeline on how…once we modified, once we developed once we built-in, and so so I am happy with the place we have come. However I completely acknowledge the place we got here from.
Drew Lawrence
Is the one looking for out why his Medal of Honor suggestion was not processed or misplaced or no matter occurred to it twice.
Command Sgt. Maj. Michael Weimer
Truthfully, I do not know precisely how they’re addressing that.
Maj. Gen. Patrick Roberson
Yeah, I do not know. I feel the Army could be very targeted on the truth that, hey, he is getting this, let’s celebrated it.
Drew Lawrence
I requested Thorne about what the Army leaders mentioned about whether or not racism performed a task.
Drew Lawrence
I am questioning what what do you suppose, what’s your evaluation?
Neil Thorne
I feel it performed a component. You have a look at the occasions: it was 1964. We simply had the Civil Rights Act by way of 1965, you had Selma occurring. You had all kinds of tensions, racial tensions at the moment. And the navy is a sub phase of the better inhabitants. There may be going to be spill over animosity in there. And from what I’ve talked to with among the troopers of that point interval, they acknowledge that. However is there something within the information that say, ‘Hey, it was trashed at not attempting as a result of he was black?’ No, no, there is not a smoking gun. However you simply have to take a look at the context of when that was put in. And being one of many first African American Special Forces officers, I do know that there was animosity towards him. However the individuals who served immediately with him, officers and enlisted beneath him, describe him to a tee, each one I’ve requested. They usually mentioned he is the perfect commander they ever served beneath. However then on the surface of that the story will get a bit of bit totally different… minorities have served our nation for an extended, very long time, for the reason that starting. And I feel due to the racial disparities that we have seen in our historical past, coupled with the service and the valor, a lot of these racial teams, as a result of not all of them began off as inquiries into African American veterans, but in addition others and likewise of assorted spiritual backgrounds, too. In order that it is a sluggish burn. I feel that is a very good description, as a result of it has been a very long time that we as a melting pot have been preventing collectively, and but, not treating everybody the identical.
Drew Lawrence
I additionally suppose it is vital to level out that the president, President Joe Biden himself, acknowledged that discrimination performed a think about Davis usually being within the Special Forces
President Joe Biden
The Inexperienced Berets, like our nation, then weren’t free from discrimination both. Individuals pulled Paris apart to warn him, ‘Are you positive you wish to be part of? There aren’t lots of people such as you seem like you on this outfit.’ Effectively bear in mind, this was solely 14 years after President Truman desegregated our navy. Solely 14 years later. Paris did not hearken to them. And thank God he did not…
Neil Thorne
Effectively, I knew I knew he was among the many first African American Special Forces officer simply from the time that he was commissioned and went in. So it is, it is there, it existed. And I am hoping that circumstances like this may help deliver folks collectively. So it does not occur once more.
Drew Lawrence
And all of this mentioned, the occasion on the White Home was clearly a particular one with Colonel Davis in his pink and greens, and an handle from the President. What did that day, which was a fruits of almost 60 years imply for you? And for Davis, and his household and the handfuls of supporters who helped make it occur?
Neil Thorne
I feel it was, I feel it was very tough on Colonel Davis. Any of those circumstances are tough on the recipient, as a result of it is a it is an emotional curler coaster all the time you are engaged on it, you may get to at least one aim line, resembling Secretary of the Army or Secretary of Protection, and all of the little sub branches which can be in there which can be reviewing these packets. And also you suppose you are actually there solely to get kicked again once more. Oh, it was it was a remaining, the ultimate justification that that though we knew all alongside that that, you understand, he deserved the Medal of Honor, it was it was that remaining acknowledgement by the US authorities that he did too. And that was completely unimaginable. Everyone, all of the all of the Army and the entire troops that had been there supporting him had been completely unimaginable. You realize, they acknowledged the problems of the previous, but in addition it offers hope for the longer term. Plenty of hope sooner or later I feel.
Drew Lawrence
Stick round as a result of up subsequent is our reporter roundtable, with my co-host Rebecca Kheel and Army reporter Steve Beynon who will assist us clarify the Army’s latest … effectively, not so new… recruiting slogan. Be All You Can Be.
Rebecca Kheel
Hello everybody my identify is Rebecca Kheel, co-host of Fireplace Watch and congressional reporter for Navy.com. Welcome to our reporter roundtable. Here is what you will have missed since our final episode: An extension of the Korean Warfare Memorial in Washington D.C. etched hundreds of errors completely in stone. Now, the Korean Warfare Veterans Memorial Wall of Remembrance — a $22 million mission unveiled final summer season — is getting consideration from Congress the place bipartisan lawmakers are calling on the Pentagon to deal with why spelling errors for names of those that died within the battle made it to the ultimate blueprints, not to mention the Nationwide Mall. Veterans and repair members who helped with the evacuation of Afghanistan in August 2021 testified to Congress in harrowing element this week concerning the horrors and heartbreak they skilled. The Home Overseas Affairs Committee listening to was the primary in what is predicted to be a sequence of hearings within the GOP-led panel’s probe into the messy exit from America’s longest warfare. Area Drive Guardians can anticipate the service to roll out a brand new health pilot plan as quickly as subsequent month. The service beforehand promised to unveil a brand new holistic wellness program final yr, which included sporting health trackers like Apple Watches or Fitbits to trace train and sleep. Now the service may see a few of these issues examined out. As at all times, becoming a member of me is my co-host Drew Lawrence. And with us right this moment is Navy.com’s Army reporter Steve Beynon. Welcome, thanks for being right here.
Drew Lawrence
Steve, I hear you include excellent news: the Army is lastly letting us Be All We Can Be. That is the providers’ new slogan unveiled this week however it’s a recycle from many years in the past — why did it change and may you clarify the place precisely this motto got here from?
Steve Beynon
Yeah, I imply what’s what’s previous is new once more, the Army has actually been been combating a coherent message for not less than a decade. However the brand new advert goes again to be all you may be. It was a slogan used within the 80s and 90s. On the Army says all its advertising and marketing analysis simply saved coming again to that simply being the perfect it is ever…the perfect factor it is ever accomplished, they usually could not give you something higher. It is type of how the Army just lately went again to World Warfare II uniforms for his or her gown uniform. They’re simply, you understand, their perspective. Typically the previous stuff simply merely works. And this new advert focuses on fight being within the discipline. People I talked to type of behind the scenes on making these things. You realize, they mentioned the concept of pitching these horny technical jobs sounded cool, on the time just a few years in the past, however the Army merely they can not compete with the IT sector or actually any civilian job exterior of entry degree work. So the Army’s simply going again to what it will probably provide. It is a spot that’s goal, objectively distinctive. So it is type of leaning into its strengths, troopers within the discipline, weapons, camouflage, that is one thing that the IT sector cannot get someone.
Rebecca Kheel
Steve it feels like, you understand, as you talked about this new branding, that you just’re alluding to recruiting and the truth that the Army didn’t make its aim final yr, it fell quick about 15,000 troopers. There’s some proof it is on the upswing now. However I wish to ask, is that this marketing campaign gonna work?
Steve Beynon
Yeah. So let’s simply faux that is the best marketing campaign the military has ever accomplished. And each Gen Z individual you present loves it, and it’ll go to this recruiting station magically proper after saying it. Let’s simply faux that is the state of affairs, proper? The issue is, how do you truly attain Gen Z? Nobody isn’t any 17, 18, 19 yr previous goes to the Army’s YouTube web page. They are not watching TV. The Army does do promoting on streaming providers like Hulu and Peacock. They do do some promoting on Instagram. However the Army cannot use Tik Tok. Tik Tok cannot be utilized by authorities entities due to you understand, it is a Chinese language firm they usually’re involved about all the info assortment Tik Tok does do on folks’s telephones. However that’s the place Gen Z is added. The Tik Tok has 50 to 80 million energetic customers within the US and never utilizing Tik Tok for promoting and attempting to achieve that youthful viewers might be equal to not doing tv commercials within the 90s.
Drew Lawrence
Effectively, Steve, I imagine which you can be all you may be.
Steve Beynon
Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, we will do this. Now. The Army has given us all permission to be all be all we may be.
Rebecca Kheel
Okay, effectively, I’ll guess I’ll head to my nearest military recruiting station. Thanks a lot for becoming a member of us, Steve. And due to our viewers, as at all times for tuning in. You’ll want to tune in subsequent time.
Drew Lawrence
Thanks a lot for listening to this particular episode of Fireplace Watch. Thanks to our friends, Neil Thorne, Col. Paris Davis, his household, Army officers and his different supporters. Thanks additionally to my co-host, Rebecca Kheel and Army reporter Steve Beynon. Credit score to government producers Zachary Fryer-Biggs and Amy Bushatz. In case you favored this episode and wish to tell us, give us a score — wherever you get your podcasts. And as at all times, thanks for listening.
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